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Forum:Lord English = Jack Noir?
:This is a removed discussion from 's talkpage. I figure, as long as we're speculating, the other ''main antagonist should be considered as a possible identity. Not much to back this up, just four things. #Karkat seems to have recognized Lord English in the Alterniabound flash. That gives us a limited pool of characters (assuming Hussie doesn't use a new character from Karkat's past on Alternia; I think we can agree that that would be stupid.) This was before Karkat met the kids or anyone from their universe, so the possible identities are the other trolls (which could be interesting, however unlikely), the royalty (underdeveloped, ''mostly ''uninteresting characters), the lusii (pretty dumb), or Jack. #Lord English is as "indestructible, omnipotent, and enraged." Linking Lord English and Jack Noir because they are both described as furious is pretty weak evidence, but since this is speculation, I'm using it. #Jack has more opportunity than any currently existing character to gain Lord English's power (other than the first guardians, which are subservient to Lord English). He's also ambitious enough to want that power. #Meta-story logic: why would Spades Slick be profiled so thoroughly in the intermission, just to end up becoming the "fake" big bad? Croove55 04:13, November 17, 2010 (UTC) :Why's everyone so worked up on their opinions of Lord English, Jack Noir and the Rift? AH is going to reveal it anyway. ::I wouldn't consider myself "worked up". Speculation is just fun. Croove55 22:05, November 18, 2010 (UTC) :I'm simply trying to post the possibility of the Demon in the Troll's session not being Lord English, yet this Oto guy keeps claiming that it is without a doubt 100% Lord English, and there is no way it can ever be anybody else. Despite the fact that there is not actual evidence to this theory. So yeah, that's me. No idea what his deal is. ::I definitely am sensing a lot of hostility in this debate for some reason, frankly I think we all need to . It's not like it will matter anyways, as AH will reveal it and then no one will care. Seems to me like the Jack side is trying to turn this into some kind of moral issue of democracy or free speech or summat. I mean, this is a wiki right? If someone is reversing your changes, then just un-reverse them. 00:24, November 19, 2010 (UTC) :OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG ... *cough* okay sorry for the drama, but yeah, I think that's a pretty nice bit of evidence for Noir being English. Which of course... implies that Spades Slick was trying to off Jack Noir throughout the entire intermission. Hoho. AnatineTyrant 02:19, November 19, 2010 (UTC) :There is a possibility that Noir=English, but it's pretty speculative. But there is no chance that the demon is anyone that is not him, which is what this dude kept adding into the article. And even if Jack ''is LE, almost all the "evidence" stuck on the pages is wrong. :Ugh I wanted to avoid explaining this, it'll be used against me forever now. Just stop putting stuff back in that I reverted out or I will hang you with your own intestines and carve out your skull with a rusty spoon. ]] }} 02:41, November 19, 2010 (UTC) ::Hey hey hey man, that ain't me. I'm on your side here. Basically that is my opinion as well. The Demon is definitely English, but there is a chance that English is Jack. But yeah, I don't really know what that other guy's going on about. His feathers really seem to be ruffled about this entire affair. But hey, don't lump me with him. AnatineTyrant 03:19, November 19, 2010 (UTC) :::Well you could always try providing your own evidence to the Demon being LE instead of constantly removing my attempts at providing an alternate train of thought for the readers. :::Well you could always try providing your own evidence to the demon being LE instead of constantly removing my attempts at providing an alternate possibility. Really, you are starting to act like some governments and religious groups (which I will not bring up due to this not being a debate about those) in which ``if it isn’t what I think, then it is wrong. Only my thought is right, and nothing you can say will change it! :::Alternatively you could simply remove any mention of the Demon from both jack AND Lord English, and just leave “the demon” as an anonymous entity we know nothing about. No mention of who it might be in the rift page, the jack noir page, OR the lord English page. “The Demon” is just something people will need to think of themselves. :::The choice is yours, and until you make one, I will continue to provide an alternative to the railway thinking you keep trying to enforce. ::::Hahaha, oh man, you're really too much, guy. Oooooh, comparing wiki mods to facist governments and theocracies. Man. I think you're taking this all just a little too seriously. He's reverting your edits because they're speculation. It's not some kind of a personal attack, and it's also not because he's trying to perpetuate some sort of secret government conspiracy or coverup. Jeez. You kids just like to rage at stuff. Making yourselves feel like rebels or revolutionaries or something. Well let me tell you something, Che Guevera, feel free to discuss your theories on talk pages, but until we see any real evidence... conclusive, definite, evidence, then on the talk pages your theories should remain. So far, all signs point to English. Overwhelmingly so. I feel it is possible that English is Jack, but again, that's more speculation. ::::So yeah. Sheez. Can't you just hold on for a bit? Take a couple deep breaths, man. We'll all just wait and see where this goes yeah? AnatineTyrant 04:04, November 19, 2010 (UTC) :::::What "signs"? time and time again i have asked for evidence of it being Lord English yet i have yet to see anything other then "he glows green and haz a big codey thing in the place between the sessions" ::::::Okay okay okay. Fine. ::::::Please observe, wherein Lord English is referred to as an indestructible demon :::::: :::::: :::::: ::::::Now, pay close attention as Aradia describes the demon from the rift :::::: ::::::I think that this is pretty clear, yes? ::::::On top of that, yes, he does indeed glow green. I think that is actually pretty important. ::::::On the note of the poolball summoning code, I think perhaps I was in error in bringing that up. It is pretty unimportant. The rift does not summon the demon, it brings him out of hiding as per Aradia's exposition here. To me, this suggests that the rift does not "send" any demons or Jacks from the kids' session into the trolls' session, but merely awakens something that was always there, as per the nature of the "indestructible demon". The code is irrelevant. It instantiates the demon at the end of the universe, but we are not talking about that event. We are talking about the rift. Not the end of the universe. We do not know what causes the rift. The code might be at its cause, or it might be something else entirely, hereunto unforeseen. ::::::Finally, the billiards analogy. Scratch and English. ::::::The end. AnatineTyrant 04:57, November 19, 2010 (UTC) :::::::*Are you saying there is only one thing in the entire multiverse that can be viewed as indestructible, and that only one definition of the term may be used? to an Ant a human seems pretty indestructible. at the same time "the demon" seems indestructible to the Trolls. :::::::*Bec, Scratch, and Cueballs also glow green don't forget. and there is always the Green sun. :::::::*The part about the scratch not sending any demons or Jacks kind of makes sense. but i will personally still hold on to the possibility that it served as a gateway between sessions. :::::::*Finally, who is to say that in the Kid's session a "scratch" is not referred to as a "Bec"? ::::::: 05:22, November 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::*Yes. "Indestructible demon" is very specific. Almost like a proper noun. Its repeated use has led me to believe that it refers to one single specific entity. It's sort of like saying there is only one thing in the entire multiverse that can be viewed as a "Karkat". Sure, it's POSSIBLE there are other things called Karkat, but at this point in the story, why would the writer bother introducing such a thing? ::::::::*Again, the assumption of a green prototyped Jack is based upon an event which may only possibly occur, whereas the assumption that English is responsible is based on something we already know. I think the green factor favours English to Jack. ::::::::*The kids also call it a Scratch. AnatineTyrant 14:11, November 19, 2010 (UTC) ← Indent reset When was this? 18:38, November 19, 2010 (UTC) :Karkat's first conversation with John, near the start of Act 5-2. 19:11, November 19, 2010 (UTC) ::^Sums it up, pretty much. ::Even if Jack somehow does get prototyped with Bec or whatever, it just means that Jack will become LE, which is the assumption most supporters of this theory made. ]] }} 22:05, November 19, 2010 (UTC) :::Ehh, I'm personally not too keen on the idea of Jack being Lord English, but that's just me. 03:59, November 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003238 ::::CALLED IT AnatineTyrant 05:42, November 28, 2010 (UTC) ---- pretty much confirms Jack as Lord English. Assuming that the Demon and Lord English are indeed the same. JordanTH 04:44, November 28, 2010 (UTC) :Except in the chat thread Andrew Hussie seems to be implying that isn't necessarily true. "Now all you need to do is explain why he has such a big coat", for instance. So we should hold off for now. --Golden Monkey 04:51, November 28, 2010 (UTC)